Road To Canada Forums

Saw this posted on imm.ca, thought I'd share with everyone here:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/30072007/21/c...iting.html

I noticed the name of the author and thought "That looks familiar..." He actually registered on the immi.ca forums, looking for stories, a while back. I can't find his posts (there are no non-archived posts, and I can't find a way to search the archives), but here's the user account: http://www.immigration.ca/discussion/pop...y&id=12106

for the most part I think he has it right.

You're right, AnitsirK, I do remember seeing his posts over at Imm.ca.

After reading the whole article, the Deirdre Pinto quoted in the article is deegem from immigration.ca -- the one with the blog that got CIC to respond to her (http://www.immigration.ca/discussion/top...C_ID=23028). I believe she was the one who posted the thread for the journalist initially. I can't find it anywhere, though.

What I find interesting is the tens of thousands of dollars that these SW applicants are putting into the Canadian economy in the form of fees and such for work permits, etc., while waiting. Seems to me that Immigration's found a "cash cow" and can make more money for somebody (the question is who?) by stalling the approvals rather than just being done with it. Imagine - recruiting professionals to come to Canada so that you can milk them for all they're worth while holding the proverbial carrot of a PR visa in front of them. Borders on extortion, usery at least. It's shameful!

I don't know if the government actually makes money on the application fees or whether these just cover the wages of people who work on the applications and the call centre workers. Judging by how bureaucratic the whole system is I wouldn't be surprised if they barely cover their costs, especially on the more complicated applications which get BF-ed and then reviewed again by a different IO who has to read everything, etc etc.

I don't know either, but it'd sure be interesting to find out. It just seems like they deliberately drag their feet.

Well if you think about it ... if they process all the cases as fast as they could their would not be any backlog which = to less work to be done which = to less people needed to process which = to people being laid off ... so if you want to keep a comfortable job with good pay you make sure that their is work to be done ...

. . . goes along with what I always observed while working in government in the States. Although in the States, if you get a job in gov't it's almost impossible for them to get rid of you. You have to do something pretty terrible (we got one girl fired because we were able to prove she was embezzling), but other co-workers of mine would sit around and talk on the phone all day long, or sell shares in football pools, etc., and nothing was ever done about it. I was brought up with a really strong work ethic - my supervisor once asked me if I was lazy because the lady I mentioned before, who spent all day on the phone, complained that I wasn't doing her work for her while she was "busy"! So, I don't have much confidence that the people out there working on our aps have much motivation for getting anything done either. Couple that with the fact that the one person I've actually talked with face-to-face at the local office gave me entirely erroneous information on three different trips to her office!! Not one thing she told me on any of those trips has proven correct!

what is the full amount of a skilled worker application... $965? That buys about 27 hours of labour per applicant without factoring in hard costs and overhead. That also does not count the money that the government of Canada spends helping people settle in Canada.

I don't think this is a money making exercise.

As for people and their settlement money - in- Canada and family class applicants do not need to bring funds with them. Only skilled worker applicants do. They don't pay that money to anyone specific- they use it in the same way any tourist would - food, shelter and transporation. How much would that worker spend living at home if they did not have a job?

I think CIC it is far from a cash cow.

The only reason I suspect we have a huge backlog is that annual filings continue to exceed the annual quota and it continually gets pushed further and further back. Family class is not subjected to quota.

The only way to avoid this drama is to change the system entirely. 300,000 applications into the system annually and then lock the door. If it is March it is March. You unlock the door again in January. Some people would scream about that approach too.

Is 5-7 years too much... absolutely. Does CIC have a responsibility to take the time required to insure people are not scamming the system... yes. Unfortunately, there are people out there not quite as honest as we are. Did you read this week about the Designated Doctor in India that has been caught falsifying medical checks? It makes the entire system slow down as CIC staff are forced to scrutinized every detail of an application.

Not sure what the option is other than go with an annual application quota.

As for the cash cow idea... I don't buy it.

Joohliya Wrote:what is the full amount of a skilled worker application... $965? That buys about 27 hours of labour per applicant without factoring in hard costs and overhead. That also does not count the money that the government of Canada spends helping people settle in Canada.

I don't think this is a money making exercise.

As for people and their settlement money - in- Canada and family class applicants do not need to bring funds with them. Only skilled worker applicants do. They don't pay that money to anyone specific- they use it in the same way any tourist would - food, shelter and transporation. How much would that worker spend living at home if they did not have a job?

I think CIC it is far from a cash cow.

The only reason I suspect we have a huge backlog is that annual filings continue to exceed the annual quota and it continually gets pushed further and further back. Family class is not subjected to quota.

The only way to avoid this drama is to change the system entirely. 300,000 applications into the system annually and then lock the door. If it is March it is March. You unlock the door again in January. Some people would scream about that approach too.

Is 5-7 years too much... absolutely. Does CIC have a responsibility to take the time required to insure people are not scamming the system... yes. Unfortunately, there are people out there not quite as honest as we are. Did you read this week about the Designated Doctor in India that has been caught falsifying medical checks? It makes the entire system slow down as CIC staff are forced to scrutinized every detail of an application.

Not sure what the option is other than go with an annual application quota.

As for the cash cow idea... I don't buy it.

I understand what you're saying, but I was referring to the quotes in the article from both Colleen Edwards and "Antonio" - between the two they figure they've dumped at least $25K into "work permit renewals, medicals, and lawyer fees". They are the "cash cows" - people who have money, who come to Canada and are encouraged to contribute to the economy, etc., while they wait. It's not costing Canada much to have them here, but it's costing these families a lot of $$$ to be here waiting for their elusive PR. And that's only the tip of the iceberg if we're talking even a percentage of 500,000 SW applicants.

Granted, the bulk of the monies are probably going to lawyers (the medical fees aren't that high), but that's still a ton of money going into the general Canadian economy that's coming from people who aren't getting full benefit from Canada for years on end. It shouldn't take 5 years to approve a doctor that was recruited here - and the fact that an article in the newspaper about their plight suddenly got them PR, after all that time, doesn't look too good for the "system".

In theory at least, the processing fees are meant to directly cover the costs (staff time and resources) of an application. I can't find it now, but I do remember reading about someone (perhaps an MP) challenging the processing fee structure saying they were higher than the actual cost to the government of providing the services.

Anyway, processing fees aside, there is still the RPRF, which does not cover any costs. Even the CIC website definition makes it sound somewhat like a cash cow, imho:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/p...on04.asp#3

"What is the right of permanent residence fee?

The right of permanent residence fee (RPRF) covers the right to obtain permanent resident status in Canada. The government charges this fee because permanent resident status gives people many benefits and privileges."

Matthew

Government of Canada in general is pure IDIOT. The author of this op-ed went ahead and mentioned something about Aussies and their immigration system- how the temporary foreign worker system has sort of soared to its height in that country and aftermath. He also mentioned about how Canada admits sort of (in a proverbial sense) most immigrants by numbers in whole world. The problem lies out there: the people who gives their criticism about the system are grossly misinformed just alike the policy makers and Gov. Canada itself.

Constructively: Canada no way admits most immigrants than any G8 nations to begin with: It would be the United States followed by the UK. The US admits more people on various VISA s(PR and TR both) then Canada can even imagine and no matter what happens with Bush and war in Iraq and how disguntled the US image is worldwide, it remains the best destination for a foreign national. Canada's immigration stream spiked after 9/11 when the US implemented tougher legislations as per security features. People migrate more to Canada then Australia in a sense to live next door to the superpower of the world. Aussies have similar economic features alike us with abundance of natural resources alike Canada. And the best destination for migration is opinion of the Economist's editorial where they went as far as 50 years with the superpower's health.

Many people do not know that Aussie DIMIA or CIC alike counterpart of theirs have electronic logging process in terms of application submission for permanent residence. They do not buy the notion of snail mail to that extent as we do in Canada. Of course you have to mail many other things but the general processing time is cut short through electronic exchange of idea, not to mention you loose less documents. Aussies have far better skilled worker class than Canada can comprehend, to be honest. Did anyone ever ask why there are so many skilled class applications flooding this system? Nope no one bothered since everyone is over joyous with how admiring Canada is admitting so many educated professionals in this lala land. And the debate of how blah blah land Canada is once these "so-called" skilled individuals come to this majestic North is on going as we all know.

Skilled worker class for Australia is very careful of in what they are admitting in their country. First, they are extremely strict about their language requirements: No IELTS no entry, period. They care less if you got a PhD in Shakespearean or Dickensonian English Literature the deal is scripted on tombstone: You do not belong to a country with native lingo as English please take the IELTS to prove your English ability....The End...No further discussion!

Next, Aussies have extreme consensus as per their point system as to quarterly evaluation of labour crisis in their country. Each quarter in a given fiscal year they will evaluate which profession needs attention most. For example, in 2003 they deemed to need more Software Developers and in 2005 after much review they changed it to Bricklayers. Of course they know how to deal with it with their discalimer: if you appiled in 2003 and were given 15 extra points to pass the threshold you can loose it in the event the immigration officer grants you the PR Visa, assuming at the time of final PR VISA the profession is not much in demand. But that is only extra point and an applicant can still make it to be a PR; the idea is they keep vigilant bird's eye view to what is happening in their labour force. Has anyone even heard such requirements in Canada or so far anyone talking about it? NOPE. From federal to provincial level in Canada no one cares or adequately capable intellectualy or politically to understand such features.

Now this is the best part of Aussie skilled worker class: strict evaluation of the SKILLED part of prospective immigrant. If you have an university degree from outside Australia, each and every course regarding that degree has to be strictly evaluated by an independent body. So I have a Canadian degree and in profession I am a software developer (which I am in real life) and now I decide to apply to DIMIA for immigration. They will take my undergrad transcript and go course by course, material by material from my 1st year to final year courses and compare with their equivalent Aussie university or college. And if I want to immigrate as a software developer I MUST have a degree in computer science or IT else no points allowed. Canada's skilled worker is kind of like this: you have some degree perhaps in Maths but you have work experience in some web development and you can sneak in. Web development does not need college education and anyone can go to WWW and download any snippets to go for it, not that I am saying it is that easy in commercial level. I am just enacting an analogy of how CIC will give someone points. When it comes to your work experience Aussies demand at least 4 years for IT related professions, 6 years for Engineers and 3 for MD professionals. CIC just needs 1 year somehow..........and you can allow many thing within that 1 year block and just go for it and CIC would most likely give you points. For Aussies they will not allow anyone answering questions properly and to utmost satisfaction for your work experience. If I am claiming to be a software developer, they will ask questions as to what software am I using for work, language, tools, methodologies and the list goes on. Here a real life IT professional in my field in evaluating me strictly, however, for CIC some immigration officer relying on some NOC checklist evaluates people. NOC checklist is vague and out of touch with year 2007 to begin with. Once these CIC personnels do not understand anything they will defer application processing and extend a bottleneck more in application processing pool. For Aussies their DIMIA is very smart in my opinion. They are going electronic and decentralized and outsource their work. Once the independent body accredites an applicant a certificate will be issue alike our PNP. That thing should be sent to DIMIA before an applicant can get points.

CIC has only some 3,900 roughly individuals across the globe to process PR/TR applications. That number has not gone up since silence era I believe and CIC is still conducting business as per Industrail Age and not Information one. CIC allows any Tom, Harry, Dick to apply for skilled immigration. They do not have any cap on number of applications they can receive and they willing to process. They will count anyone with some experience in their list to apply and as far as other forums go, many have applied with call centre experience and got PR for Canada. Their eligible occupations list need to be revised- there are many occupations which are simply objectionable to allow someone to immigrate to a G8 nation and above all in a trillion dollar economy (example: a call centre agent is walking in here since he/she has some questionable college education while a bricklayer is sitting back home since he is illeterate). CIC cares less about investors/business class immigrants since it take them 3-4 years to process such applications. Meanwhile if an investor with almost equal assets that he needs to qualify for Canadian immigration appears before US authorities, he can get greencard much quickly. The list about CIC and Gov. Can's stupidity just goes on and on. And yes CIC treats foreign students badly in this country..........in an estimate students with study permits pursuing education spend some 1 Billion CAD annually. These students also pay for their private healthcare which amounts to huge fortune for Canadian businesses. Now these students are not asking for everything free.....they are asking for easier access to PR. Aussies would admit foreign students with Aussie degree almost instantly after graduation since their governent assume these students to be educated, lived and better assimilated with their system. It would be a good gesture to retain those students who later become better work force. Not to mention Canada's domestic students run up huge debt on OHIP and other healthcare since they are not working while in school and a huge student loan that is on their shoulder...all thanks at the expense of tax payers. The problem is Canada's all major political parties are comfortably numb with immigration and they've reconciled to laziness and complacency.....so the saga of this non sense will be on going. And as far as these critics go they need to do better homework and good research before they can come up with better solutions for Ottawa to work upon.

My thoughts...

personally I like the Aussie system very much.

how can someone spend $25,000 in work permits, medicals and renewals. I figure we are looking at $1,000 a pop. the math is not working for me.